Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

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fattermonk
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by fattermonk » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:52 am

LLDs are required on all pressurized underground lines. The line between the tanks would require a LLD.
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cstoredude
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by cstoredude » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:38 am

According to the 2017 Version of RP100, PEI's own recommended practices, it says the following:

"Shutoff devices that are designed for use with underground tanks should only be used with gravity deliveries and where there are liquid-tight connections between the delivery hose and the fill pipe."

So, since this would be a non-gravity delivery, there is no shutoff device that would be legal to use, right? Or, is there one? Anybody?

fattermonk
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by fattermonk » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:03 pm

Regulations allow for alarm as a method of overfill. However, if your ball float engages before the alarm triggers - very bad.

This is a transfer, so just like from a truck delivery, you would be required to monitor the filling of the tank at all times. You think the owner is going to do that for 20-30 minutes on a busy Saturday?

As mentioned above, a LLD would be required on the line between the two tanks. How are you going to get line pressure to get the LLD to work?

Your risk/reward ratio on this is way off. I agree with stuppid on this one.
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allline
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by allline » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:12 pm

In Texas they require mechanical overfill device as well. They don’t allow alarm as only means of protection. I plan on using solenoid valve at point of connection to allow LLD to operate. Thanks

cstoredude
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by cstoredude » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:43 pm

This comes right from the TCEQ Regulatory Guidance, RG-475e, page 4

"Can I use an audible alarm as an overfill device?
An audible alarm that is emitted when the level reaches 90 percent of the tank’s volume may be used as an overfill device if used in conjunction with either a flow restrictor or shutoff set at 98 percent of the tank volume."

So, here's my question: What overfill device is Love's using on their system that is pressure filling the underground diesel tanks?
Since the Texas Regulations clearly state that you cannot rely on just the tank monitor alarm, but must have a mechanical overfill device.
Since Love's has these sites in Texas, they must've found the right kind of device, right?
Who sells this device that is rated for pressure filling, not just gravity drops?


sdisselhorst
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by sdisselhorst » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:25 am

According to the way I read RP1200, it seems you would need a trap door fill adapter to comply. I would think this scenario would be considered the same as a remote fill, which does require the trap door. Anyone else's thoughts on this?

RP1200 also makes the claim that tanks with remote and direct fills are very dangerous, which makes me think they would make a strong case against doing this at all.

Here's the problem though, it is either legal, or it isn't. Even if its stupid, but it is legal, people will do it. So, is this legal or not? I would hope that somebody who works in a regulatory agency could chime in on this and help clear this up. Anyone?

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CherokeeUST
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by CherokeeUST » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:19 am

You should ask a regulator.

Since folks are quoting TCEQ you could reach out to TexasEnviroHelp 800-447-2827
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JohnnyP
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by JohnnyP » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:31 pm

Loves is using a 5hp motor in the bio tank to blend in the drop as diesel is being delivered. The system that controls this shuts down the bio motor when the Veeder Root (new installs are EVOs) hit overfill on the diesel tank. That does not rely on the audible alarm to stop flow.

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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by ZMiller » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:34 am

The in service tank during a normal gravity delivery would see up to 15 psi typically if one was caculating head pressure from a truck and or trailer.

Screwy configurations are dangerous when in the future someone ends up working and or changing out a line component not knowing what to turn or lock out.

Product piping from one tank to another to keep full or tap reserve would need if controlled by say the VR for example a pressure regulator to protect from the nurse tank over pressurization.

Why a customer wouldn't just set up a siphon is somewhat puzzling. One would think it safer to siphon connect and just add a ball valve or vacuum brake vent at the siphon port to isolate the reserve when not needed.
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sdisselhorst
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Re: Filling tank off of another tank with sub pump.

Post by sdisselhorst » Fri Aug 03, 2018 12:22 pm

Just turning off the pump when the tank monitor hits overfill does not comply with the regulations, right?

There has to be an overfill device that shuts off the flow.

That overfill device has to be designed and UL certified for the application.

Someone sent me the info on the overfill device they are using is from Vaporless.

if you look at it on the Vaporless website, it is designed and certified for above ground tanks, not underground tanks.

Can we just disregard the regulations if we are a big company?

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