SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Underground storage tank regulations, compliance issues and news from EPA OUST, ASTSWMO, CALCUPA and state regulatory agencies.
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mike10
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SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by mike10 » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:24 pm

Seems like since its inception , no one has really done anything to correct the corrosion inside diesel tanks. I can only think of what the tank itself must look like. Now homeowner heating oil tanks have this crap in them and that will eat them alive

ZMiller
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by ZMiller » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:53 am

It's political.
When you are dead it's likely you won't know it. It could be difficult for others. It's the same if you are stupid.
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cbauden
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by cbauden » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:06 am

Yes, it is political and internal corrosion is a big problem. I met a number of exhibitors at the 2016 PEI Convention who were quite familiar with the corrosion issue. Also as you know, EPA is beginning to get involved. There are ways to control microbial induced corrosion (MIC) in both diesel and gasoline UST.

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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by ZMiller » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:57 am

If one points convincingly at who is to blame one ends up with a knife in the back. Tokheim, Wayland and Red Jacket learned in a hard way the consequences of sticking noses into controversial regulatory and equipment reliability issues. For the real powers it is best to leave the corrosion causing issues plaguing fuel storage tanks for the time being, distant, on a back burner or needing further delay tactic study. It's ironic that the ones capable and not addressing the problem have the most to lose. It's as if they have already received the unsigned letters warning them to keep their noses out of effectively resolving the issues. Truly to a point of idiotic stupidly.

But then since the Hubble Telescope was put into orbit it's just a matter of time sooner rather than later before earth is hit by a catastrophic life ending object from space so who cares?
When you are dead it's likely you won't know it. It could be difficult for others. It's the same if you are stupid.
"Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to Hell in a way that they will begin looking forward to the trip"

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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by ZMiller » Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:04 pm

Some owners indicated that following treatments presented in these documents has been effective in slowing corrosion in their affected USTs. These documents generally focus on minimizing water in order to limit microbial growth in USTs, among other enhanced maintenance practices. These practices may suggest more frequent water or fuel monitoring, using different filters, or using biocides or corrosion inhibitors. Other fuel treatment products intended to dissolve and remove microbial colonies and protect submerged metal surfaces anecdotally suggest success in limiting corrosion. Preliminary anecdotal results of limiting oxygen in USTs through the use of nitrogen blanketing equipment in order to prevent the growth of microorganisms that require oxygen for survival show potential to limit corrosion in the vapor space of USTs, as do filtration systems designed to remove particulates in fuel and water in which microbial colonies could live. These results are circumstantial, but together suggest probable supporting evidence from field experiences for laboratory research, which has hypothesized that MIC is likely involved in corrosion in USTs storing diesel and suggested limiting microbial populations is key to minimizing corrosion.
When you are dead it's likely you won't know it. It could be difficult for others. It's the same if you are stupid.
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Fatmonk
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by Fatmonk » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:55 pm

Has anyone seen any states start to regulate this? I reviewed the EPA report and others. Lot o' recommendations but I'm not seeing much action yet.

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CherokeeUST
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by CherokeeUST » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:57 am

I see UST Inspectors look at the ATG and see if there is water in the tanks. The good ones explain why they are doing this. I've never seen or heard of anyone getting a NOV for this though. The weights and measures guys might write a site up for this, IF they got a customer complaint first.
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by Fatmonk » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:45 am

I don't think that all the UST inspectors even realize that there is a problem. The studies from Battelle and the EPA haven't pinned down the exact cause. The one commonality is water in the tank. I know that Montana limits the amount of water you can have in the tank (1", I think). Anyone up there know if that's been affective? Anyone seeing microbicides being regularly added? Thanks.

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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by bugbuster » Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:38 pm

I can't speak for the folks in MT, but my experience with other tanks is that 1" of water is a tremendous volume in terms of microbial habitat. Think about this: in fuel-system bottoms-water samples it is not uncommon to recover between 10 million and a billion colony forming units (CFU)/mL. As CFU is the visible mass as a result of either one cell or a cluster of cells reproducing on a solid nutrient medium. CFU/mL data tell you the population density of culturable - there are >5,000 recipes for different growth media. Moreover, some microbes require oxygen and other cannot grow if oxygen is present. The end result is that the kind of culture testing usually used on fuel-system samples is unlikely to detect >0.01% of all of the microbes in the sample. It is not uncommon for culture testing to indicate that no microbes are present, but more advanced microbiological tests to indicate heavy contamination. Now keep in mind that there are 3.78 L/gal (3,780 mL/gal). Depending on the tank size and configuration, 1" of bottoms-water can equal anywhere from 10 to 100 gal. So a system with nearly 4 trillion bugs/mL in 100 gal of bottoms-water, has approximately 4E14 microbes in the water-phase.

As of yet there is no irrevocable proof that any or all of the ULSD UST corrosion damage is caused by bugs. However, the circumstantial evidence obtained from the two recent survey studies points to either direct or indirect involvement of microbes.
There are a number of reasons that it is not practical to maintain truly dry UST. Even aircraft operators face challenges keeping aircraft tanks dry. To quote CRC 667 DIESEL FUEL STORAGE AND HANDLING GUIDE:

"Active tank water management should be required. Both ASTs and USTs should be as “water-free" as possible. Setting a requirement of having no water in the tank is impractical. However, water should be monitored frequently and be pumped out as soon as possible. As mentioned previously, water is a good solvent for contaminants and can also lead to microbial growth and corrosion problems, so minimizing water content will minimize these problems as well." An upper control limit of 1" of water is a far cry from as water-free as possible.

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CherokeeUST
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Re: SEVERE STP corrosion internally on Diesel

Post by CherokeeUST » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:14 am

I think the discussion of "water free" tanks is important. But the monitoring technology is not able to meet that demand right now. Short of sending a employee out daily with a stick and some water finding paste. Which, in itself, has inherent errors.

Most ATG's are lucky to find water when it gets to one inch height. That's if the float hasn't gotten stuck.

Some of us old timers got used to telling everyone to not worry about water until it get's to 3 or so inches deep. With ULSD and Ethanol we just can't be so lackadaisical anymore.
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