Corrosion Issue Symptoms or Solutions

[stuppid]

Gas station customer 4 hours away.

Customer: I need a price to repair my sump.
Me: What's wrong?
Customer: The turbine is really rusty.
Me: Send me a picture.

Picture sent. Turbine growing barnacles. Copper LD vent tube growing blue hair.

Me: You have a small vapor leak in your sump. When you open it does it smell like vinegar?
Customer: Yes.
Me: You have bugs in your tank. You get water in your sump. You have a small vapor leak in your sump. Have your testing company locate and fix the vapor leak. Have your tank cleaned.
Customer: You don't clean tanks?
Me: No. Call your jobber. They will know someone.

Customer three years later: I need a price to replace my turbine. It's really rusty.
Me: Did you clean the tank?
Customer: No, why?
Me: Never mind. Did you have the vapor tester find and repair the small vapor leak?
Customer: No, why?
Me: Never mind. Did you stop getting water in the sump?
Customer: Yes we fixed that.

[ZMiller]

Typical.
Sounds like the customer doesn't understand the dynamics of the fuel storage and delivery component function in the system.

Unfortunately once ground up ferrous oxides (coffee grounds) start showing up in the associated piping and dispenser filters there is a real problem needing to be addressed. Probably to late without fixing the deadhead issue in the piping holding substantial contamination and debris. Even if the tank was cleaned the filter problem would persist for quite a while. The velocity corrosion damage to the piping once the repeated filter clogging problem is realized pretty much signals need to re-pipe or loop piping purge back to the nurse tank.

The degree of product piping damage calculated at around 20ml per year. Add to that servicing metering and control valve issues. To late for this site. You nor I can fix stupid.

Suggest to the customer;
1. They contract with a more competent tank and sump tester,
2. Buy stock in a filter manufacturing company,
3. Or maybe start looking for a new person to manage associated environmental pollution risks, tanks and fueling systems.

[ZMiller]

I'm somewhat surprised that after discussing the sump and tank corrosion issues on numerous subject thread forum posts over the last 5 years that we as a group still fail to come up with or even suggest viable solutions to the problem.

Several times obvious symptoms of a problem plaguing our industry have been noted. Those truly concerned with protecting fuel storage tanks, delivery system components and the environment around and in close facility proximity. To remain focused on agendas addressing symptoms and not problem resolution will if it has not already, end up costing substantial asset value loss, damage and environmental clean up costs.

Those in the fueling facility construction and equipment servicing industry need to recognize the problem and start to realistically set aside system symptom issues and deal with a resolution of the PROBLEM exhibiting symptoms.

It's frustrating to see tanks "that do not have a problem" not included and compared with study data compiled to tanks and fueling systems "that do have a problem" before we run out of symptom and problem free tanks to compare.

PEI Forum members that, I and others consider experts on the situation conditions and symptoms caused by this problem should be capable, as their experience would dictate, have the ability to get to the root of the problem before it is truly to late.

[stuppid]

I can only speak to the market that I am in, but I think the lack of any sense of urgency on the part of the tank owners is the main issue at hand. Add to that that each situation appears to be different enough that a singular solution appears to be impossible.

Me to customer: You have bugs in your tank I think.
Customer: How do you know?
Me: Your turbines are rusting something awful. We change filters here once a month.
Customer: What should I do?
Me: I would have your tank cleaned. I would have your fuel sampled periodically to help detect if there is a problem. I am sure your tank warranty states that you should do that.
Customer: You don't do that?
Me: No, it's above my pay grade.
Customer: Who should I call?
Me: I don't know. Ask your Jobber.
Customer: Will we have to shut down?
Me: Probably.
Customer: What happens if we don't do anything?
Me: Probably your tank fails. The same thing happening to the turbines is probably happening to the inside of the tank.
Customer: How do you know?
Me: Just guessing.
Customer: Our tanks are double wall right?
Me: Yes.
Customer: Does gas still come out of the hose?
Me: Yes, sometimes.
Customer: Ok then.

I could be wrong, but in my limited reading on the subject the only consensus is that water in the tank is about the only common condition that leads to accelerated corrosion. I my market this is not a ground water issue and is not very likely to be a surface water issue. We get very few "water calls" for tank top sumps as most operators have eliminated water entering the tank top sumps. Those calls that we get extremely rarely are for water above the tank top fittings. The only consistent route for liquid water entry into the tank is through the spill container drain valve. My opinion is that water in the tank is caused by "breathing" events. For gasoline tanks, after the introduction of ORVR, a properly functioning system is going so negative that breathing occurs either at the PV vent or through any small vapor leak in the system. The current static pressure test is conducted at 2" wc with an allowable leak rate. Most systems have many very small leaks that evade this test criteria. Franklin Fueling loves the 10" wc test which may do a better job. Eventually if a station is idle or less busy vapor growth of the fuel eliminates the negative condition, but it still occurs. For diesel tanks the breathing is constant as there is no vapor recovery. Even adding a PV vent to diesel cannot solve the problem as the volume has to be made up somewhere. I think the most likely culprit at the site level is atmospheric water ingested by breathing. I have no background to speak to fuel quality issues as I am not in that side of the business.

The problem is I am just a layman on these issues. The lens through which I view this problem is very narrow. These ramblings are just the opinions of a person with no real science background, who has been working in this field in one way or another for nearly 30 years. There are smart people with the proper background to tackle these challenges. Unfortunately there has to be a financial incentive to do so. Until the stakeholders demand a solution and are willing to pay for it nothing will be done. Unfortunately the stakeholders, with I am sure some exceptions, are unlikely to take this seriously until they have a failure. The only thing that will drive this going forward is for the regulatory establishment to make it mandatory. This would provide the financial incentive to solve the problem, and prove profit commensurate with the liability involved.

[tankgenie]

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files ... 4-16_0.pdf
EPA recommends that owners of underground storage tank (UST) systems storing diesel fuel check inside their tanks for corrosion.

This is a bit simplistic, but maybe keep a copy of this flyer (from EPA website, link above) and give it out to clients who feel they have no incentive to do the right thing and investigate and remediate the corrosion issues you are detecting...

Highlight this section: Owners are responsible for the costs of cleaning up releases to the environment when they occur, so it is important for owners to check their tanks for corrosion. Severe corrosion without a release may still result in higher costs due to the need for increased maintenance or the premature replacement of equipment.

[ZMiller]

Tankgenie,

While flattery typically gets me nowhere I can say, when it comes to fuel storage, few as you are more knowledgably informed.

The now somewhat dated July 2016 EPA report though then considered "Inconclusive" bring out some obvious issue conditions and causes.
Water the constituent primarily being the problem. Logic then would dictate keeping water out of the tank.

It should be understood that diesel fuel has and will always come with bugs that are inherent in the mix. From one batch to the next they will always be there in one strain or another. ONE thing a bug needs in order (become active) to colonize is WATER. Moisture is a leg of the corrosion triangle.

Water gets into the above or below ground storage tank in a number of ways;
A. Delivered as free and or suspended in the fuel column water contaminated product,
B. Thorough loose and or leaking tank top fitting(s),
C. Normal tank in breathing or outside atmosphere to replace fuel dispensed.

Seemingly simple solutions for keeping water out of a tank in most cases would be to;
1. Monitor quality of fuel delivered,
2. Maintain tank top fitting tightness,
3. Prevent tank inbreathing of outside atmosphere.

THERE already exist API approved methods to address keeping water out and preserving quality of fuel in storage tanks.

From the same EPA report July 2016

""Addressing corrosion issues at early stages
could reduce repair and replacement costs later, as well as reduce the risk of extremely expensive
environmental release clean-up costs.
Below are several approaches, but not an exhaustive list, that may be helpful with
limiting corrosion. These are available now or in development in the market.

 Regularly monitor and remove any water present in the UST
 Filter fuel for water and particulates before it is delivered into the UST or recirculate and filter water and particulates while it is stored
 Add nitrogen generating equipment to limit an oxygen rich atmosphere inside tanks
 Use liquid corrosion inhibitor additives or other corrosion inhibitors, including filming amines
 Use biocides to kill or other fuel treatments to disrupt existing microbial colonies or prevent future MIC

Research is ongoing in an attempt to pinpoint the cause of corrosion in USTs storing
diesel and identify a solution""

[ZMiller]

"THERE already exist API approved methods to address keeping water out and preserving quality of fuel in storage tanks"

And what might those approved API methods be one might might ask?

A hint being.
Read and simply move the decimal points?

[tankgenie]

Talk about water in diesel tank problems...but 99% water? Come on...
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local ... rist-says/

[CherokeeUST]

You must have the same Google Alert settings I do. Saw that story this AM.

Kind of odd how they said, "Water won't slow down flow rates". Guess they never heard of clogged filters?

Talk about water in diesel tank problems...but 99% water? Come on...
https://www.clickorlando.com/news/local ... rist-says/

[ZMiller]

A diesel engine yes will not run on water. I deal with water contaminated diesel and the supposed vehicle engine damage that it causes almost weekly.

Hard for me to actually see justification for charging $12,000 to repair damages.